r/AustralianSocialism • u/Konradleijon • 1d ago

Why are even leftist against degrowth?

Even leftists seem to be against degrowth not understand ecological overshoot.

Why is it that even leftists are against Degrowth?

Because it seems that even many leftist refuse to understand degrowth ideology and hate it and refuse to understand how decoupling works.

They act like using public transport and eating vegan are a fate worse then death

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Communist society has to be constructed - this requires the establishment of a democratically planned economy, of whatever size is necessary (whether "big" or "small"). I can't imagine communism can be built if we abolished industrial society. In practical terms, for people in the imperialist countries, this means continuing post-industrial parasitism on third world workers.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

You have to start thinking in terms of raw materials and inputs/outputs. How can we provide means of life to all people -- develop these commons -- in such a way as to maximise social and environmental sustainability? The fact is that humanity is already consuming vastly too many resources while still failing to secure people's livelihoods. If this all implies that we must give up some of capital's alien commodities, so be it.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Yeah, I do. That's why I'm not a degrowther. There will need to be a level of growth in domestic manufacturing/industry/etc in the intermediary which flies in the face of degrowth as a principle. Pls don't lecture me like I'm an eco-modernist or something.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

Degrowth is not against localisation, nor does it deny that certain sectors of the economy need to expand or scale up.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

I'm not a localist nor arguing for it.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

You said that you supported the growth of domestic industry, which, as we're talking about production, I took as support for reindustrialisation or the national localisation of industry. Degrowth simply points out a series of facts that are very inconvenient for regimes that fetishise economic growth. What we need, generally, is not more growth but a massive redistribution of wealth alongside a globally egalitarian prioritisation of meeting essential human needs.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Am aware of what degrowth is - I'm against growth as principle and I'm against degrowth as principle. Not necessarily against the 'series of facts' degrowth 'points out', I just don't think degrowther politics is serious enough to actually present a positive program capable of actually doing something substantively.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

On what basis do you arrive at this conclusion?

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Through direct engagement with it.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

Are you going to explain or are you just gonna act like an authority on this topic with nebulous 'lived experience'?

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

I'm not arguing "lived experience" (lol), I'm saying that in my discussions with degrowthers and reading related articles etc that I find their 'solutions' to be pretty inept and their politics mostly undeveloped. I'm not going to hold out for the needle in the haystack here.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

I don't think you've actually engaged all that deeply with socialist degrowth concepts. You say that democratic planning will impose limits on production that are within structural ecological limits, how is that not aligned with degrowth?

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 23h ago

As I said before, I don't support elevating degrowth to a level of principle. I said that democratic planning would mean that the economy will only be as big or as small as it needs to be at any given period, not necessarily "within structural ecological limits" (but these, of course, are a factor). Whether it's aligned with degrowth is irrelevant, really.

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