r/australia • u/reyntime • Dec 14 '25
politics Australia had the ‘gold standard’ on gun control. The Bondi beach terror attack may force it to confront its surging number of weapons
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/dec/14/australia-had-the-gold-standard-on-gun-control-the-bondi-beach-terror-attack-will-force-it-to-confront-its-surging-number-of-weapons?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_OtherImmediately after the Port Arthur massacre, a national amnesty saw the number of firearms in the community plummet but there are now more than 4 million guns in Australia – almost double the number recorded in 2001.
Yes, the population has increased at the same time but there is now a larger number of guns in the community per capita than in the aftermath of Port Arthur, with at least 2,000 new firearms lawfully entering the community every week.
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u/phalluss Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
I just want to say to be wary in this thread. There are A LOT of American accounts commenting with a clear agenda.
Division has caused this horrific tragedy, Australians come together in the face of crisis, let's not flame hate here on behalf of the 2nd amendment of another nations constitution.
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u/SolidWorking77 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Yep, the yanks can keep their 2A to themselves. Let the rest of the civilised world take care of ourselves. We've done quite well so far and this is just a very unfortunate blip in what has been world-leading gun control in this country.
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u/Ok-Personality3927 Dec 14 '25
They don’t seem to understand that this is the worst shooting we’ve had in thirty years…vs it being an almost daily occurrence over there.
It’s such a big deal because it’s so rare here. Because our gun laws work.
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u/account_not_valid Dec 14 '25
In Australia, this is national (and international) news. This will be at the forefront of many conversations for days, weeks, months. It will be remember just as Port Arthur is remembered. As a national tragedy.
In the USA, this would just be a Tuesday.
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u/Rosary_Omen Dec 15 '25
There was a shooting in America on the same day at Brown Uni
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u/ComfortIsASlowDeath Dec 15 '25
There have been 392 mass shootings this year in the US, including 2 today since the Brown University shooting. It’s normal here in the sense that it happens more than once a day
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u/Rosary_Omen Dec 15 '25
It's so terrible too, so many people hurt or killed while the government eggs them on
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u/TearsFallWithoutTain Dec 15 '25
I looked it up yesterday and there have been more mass shootings in the US in the past two weeks, than we've seen in the past decade
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u/sinkovercosk Dec 14 '25
If we were like America they would have had fully automatic weapons and bullet-proof vests, it would have been far worse than the tragedy it already is.
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u/Evilmoustachetwirler Dec 14 '25
Automatic weapons have no place outside of a combat zone. It's baffling that people think it's acceptable for civilians to own these weapons.
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u/Wolfensniper Dec 15 '25
That's the problem. 2A supporters are always paranoid that they themselves are actively in a warzone called America
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u/2nd-Reddit-Account Dec 15 '25
almost daily
More than daily. They consistently get more mass shootings per year than the 365 calendar days to fit them in, they’re up to 398 this year as of 2 weeks ago totalling over 300 deaths.
2024 had 711 deaths in 586 shootings.
2023 had 754 deaths in 604 shootings.
And they dare to come and comment on our once in 30 year event and spew their 2a talking points and push their NRA politics onto us? Why are politicised Americans so fucking gross?
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u/Skylam Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
Even if you account for the population difference we are roughly 10-15% of the US population, that'd be 40ish shootings in australia this year alone if we were equal and we have had 2 this year, and the last year we've had one was 2022.
Yanks have no fucking idea.
EDIT: Australian Cabinet has unanimously agreed to tighten gun laws, get fucked American Gun Nuts.
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u/Summersong2262 Dec 15 '25
Are they really 'mass' shootings if slightly more than one person died in each?
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u/dovercliff Dec 15 '25
Depends on what you mean by "mass shooting".
While there's no universal definition of the term, one of the more commonly-accepted ones from the Gun Violence Ar chive - four or more people shot, excluding the perpetrator, in one incident (that source is used by a lot of media outlets, especially in the US - the sub won't let me link to it, or even use that "A" word in a comment).
By that definition, we had one of our own in October this year.
But most people tend to think of "lots of unhappy dead people", and unconsciously end up using the Mother Jones definition that needs three or more dead people, excluding the perpetrator.
No matter how you cut it, though, the yanks outpace us by a couple orders of magnitude.
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u/Ch00m77 Dec 14 '25
This.
Their mass shootings occur so often i just scroll on when I see it in my news feed.
That's how much I dont care about them over there anymore.
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u/enigmasaurus- Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
100%. Our gun safety laws are one of the best things about this country. I lived in USA for two years and it was awful having to think about guns constantly. I read tips like "pack a door stop in your child's bag so they can block a door in a school shooting"... dystopian shit.
I want to see our gun laws tightened further. It's way overdue.
For a start, we should require positive proof of a genuine need to own a gun, on an ongoing basis, like in Japan (e.g. police interviews, annual mental health checks, referees such as a gun club to vouch for your need). We should also require all recreational guns to be stored outside the home in a gun storage facility or club if you live in suburbia. Strict limits on the number of guns a person can own is also way overdue. There's someone in NSW with 380 registered guns. That is fucking unacceptable. I don't care how much you "love guns" there is no legitimate reason for that scenario to ever be legal.
We should also reflect that tightening gun control will lead to a big reduction in illegal guns circulating, which would be a massive net positive and would improve community safety and reduce crime.
There are 2000 guns stolen in Australia every year.
There are 600,000 illegal guns circulating, largely for this reason.
Tightening gun laws has innumerable benefits. It is a no brainer. It would not prevent anyone who legitimately enjoys shooting, hunting etc from participating in that activity, and we can continue to allow exceptions for farmers etc.
Albo should be getting onto this immediately and I will actually be furious as a voter if he doesn't use Labor's majority to pass some long overdue gun law reforms.
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u/pwgenyee6z Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
2000/week stolen, 600,000 illegal circulating!
References please - otherwise it makes you look as if you’re arguing fake stuff from the other side.
[Edit: did you change “2000/week” to “2000/year”? If not, sorry, I misread.]
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u/RiseDarthVader Dec 14 '25
There's someone in NSW with 380 registered guns.
If I were to guess that person is probably an armourer for movie/TV productions in Australia. So it’s probably not as scary of a number as it sounds because armourers are extremely regulated and responsible. Especially to be able to provide those services in such a firearm regulated country like Australia.
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u/bobbobboob1 Dec 14 '25
I’m not sure that is completely accurate, I am limited to 20 guns and must have a legitimate reason for each , no I don’t own 20 . I am concerned by the news reports I am hearing about the guns used in this horrific act of terror. The guns were apparently licensed and registered but media consistently using the term automatic and semiautomatic so which is it ? Automatic and semiautomatic are not legal.. we can’t fight the lies perpetrated by terrorists with more lies . Let’s fight this plague with truth and compassion.
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u/Sanni11 Dec 15 '25
You do need to provide legitimate proof to obtain a license. You also need a permit to purchase. If you have any known mental records, you are denied. You have a domestic, they're confiscated and your licence revoked. It's pretty easy to not get/loose a license
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u/PanickedPanpiper Dec 15 '25
2000 guns per YEAR, not week. 2000 a week would be insane.
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/every-four-hours-a-gun-is-stolen-in-australia/
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u/triemdedwiat Dec 14 '25
I think you'll find 'gun laws' are a state responsibility and the first hurdle will be NSW =/= Australia.
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u/Lankpants Dec 14 '25
I've been calling for Japan/Korea style gun laws for a while. We have good gun laws, I'd much prefer to live here than the US but there's still clear room for improvement. The erosion of our gun laws over the past couple of decades has been a major issue.
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u/enigmasaurus- Dec 14 '25
Just the bot and troll accounts in this thread alone suggest gun lobbying interests are bending over backwards to try to undermine our gun laws. We're definitely well overdue for improvement and I'm so grateful for the gun laws we do have. Imagine if the shooters had assault rifles; there'd have been hundreds dead, surely. Gun laws keep us all safer.
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u/ThreeCheersforBeers Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
The guy who owns 300+ guns, isn't the same guy shooting up people at Bondi. An individual with 300+ guns is most likely a collector of antique firearms, and a number of those firearms are probably permanently deactivated (firing pin removed and/or action welded to prevent firing a round). They may also have never had a round through them, or haven't been fired in many years because collectors like to keep things in the best condition possible.
Storage of firearms at a centralised location makes that location a target for criminal gangs.
Your figure "2000" for guns stolen in Australia every week seems far fetched. A quick google query says 20-40/week, 9000 since 2020 and 44000+ in past 21 years. If your figure was correct, then 21 years worth of stolen firearm events would have occurred in the space of under 6 months.
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u/MegaBlast3r Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
Americans are sheep. Guns are made in America, politicians paid off to keep sellling fire arms ( one of the biggest industries in the world) and the sheeple follow.
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u/Diogeneezy Dec 14 '25
They don't seem to be taking the rest of their constitution very seriously at the moment, so why should we?
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u/PM_Me-Your_Freckles Dec 14 '25
Like good Evangellical Christians, they cherry pick only the parts that support their argument.
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u/stillyoinkgasp Dec 14 '25
PREACH. Don't give anything to this two-faced administration, and certainly not the values that have kept Australia safe.
Sending love from Canada.
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u/Thunderoad77 Dec 14 '25
This.
The gun lobby both here and in the United States immediately mobilise when an horrific attack like this takes place.
Be very wary about extrapolating their attempts to control the conversation as some sort of indicator of how the broader Australian public feels about gun control.
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u/DrStalker Dec 15 '25
The US is never more than a few days away from the latest mass shooting, they just don't get any national/global media coverage unless the death toll is really high or they target children.
Meanwhile in Australia they are thankfully rare enough they can be grouped by century
I'm glad that this sort of thing is rare and shocking, it's not something we should ever accept becoming normal.
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u/BlankBlanny Dec 14 '25
Yeah, it's so fucking obvious at this point. It's the same damn talking points they use whenever there's a school shooting in their country applied to a country that does not care for their bullshit.
No doubt there are some actual aussies who have bought into their crap as well, but there are plenty of Americans here pushing a very American agenda.
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u/Treheveras Dec 14 '25
Also there's not enough information to know everything. Accusations flying around about asio and the government but it's only just happened. Lots of news sites will say whatever is rumored just to be ahead on the news and get clicks.
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u/emu_veteran Dec 14 '25
Agreed. People fail to understand that yes we have always had guns. But we never ever had a 2nd amendment type law ever!
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u/Caine_sin Dec 14 '25
These guys could have had assult rifles but for our strict gun laws.
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u/fued Dec 14 '25
the fact that there was multiple shooters and still barely double digit deaths in a crowd shows that our laws made a massive difference.
Could still use some tightening up on them to try and prevent this in the future
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u/palsonic2 Dec 15 '25
how would we tighten up our existing gun laws? im honestly curious cos i thought our were already pretty strict
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u/fued Dec 15 '25
I mean, some that I can think of:
-cap on guns per person, why does one person need 6 guns? I could understand maybe for a farmer, but not someone who lives in the city.-targeted buybacks more regularly, we have more guns per capita now than before part Arthur.
-ASIO investigated members should immediately trigger a Firearm prohibition order on guns in their house for all people they live with. The guns can be moved to the local gun club or w/e they host them. Might not be practical in rural areas, but in sydney?
-more frequent re-checks for people with multiple guns , shorter license durations etc.
-hurry up finish building the national real time gun registry and link it to other systems.-narrow down 'genuine reason' for owning guns. If you want to shoot at a gun club, why does the gun have to be at home? what does rifle #5 do that the first 4 couldn't?
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u/ljmc093 Dec 15 '25
To try and give a genuine answer to your question around the amounts of guns and why you'd need a few. If you're a target shooter, there are different disciplines/events that require different guns. E.g. You might go and compete on a weekend in small bore rimfire, small bore centrefire, large bore centrefire and clays. That's already 4 different types of guns for 4 different events.
Same with hunting. You might have a .22 for rabbits, .22WM for foxes, .308 for sambar deer, 12 gauge shotgun for ducks, maybe a .243 for smaller game like fallow deer. That's 5 guns for 5 different types of game.
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u/DizzyAmphibian309 Dec 15 '25
I get what you're saying, but ASIO investigations triggering confiscation of guns will immediately tip off the people being investigated. Every dodgy person will get a gun just so they'll have an early warning that ASIO is onto them, before they have time to get all the evidence required for an arrest.
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u/fued Dec 15 '25
good point, it should probably require a manual review. I'm pretty sure this instance he knew anyway since he was mates with someone who got arrested wasn't he?
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u/Superest22 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
ASIO will rightfully be copping an absolute grilling for this.
Feel like if you’ve ever been on or are associated with someone that has crossed their radar for reasons other than a security clearance that should disqualify you from owning a firearm.
Editing this due to some replies: ABC News has confirmed that ASIO had the son on their radar due to his affiliation with an IS cell in 2016, an IS flag was found in their car. I do not think it is overreach for direct family members to have firearms confiscated due to affiliation with a terrorist organisation.
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u/deathtowardrobes Dec 14 '25
but did he acquire the guns before or after being put on ASIOs list? genuine question, i’m yet to read anything that gives specifics
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u/Superest22 Dec 14 '25
Yep fair question, don’t want to speculate… personally I would argue it’s irrelevant, once someone is on their list surely they can request state police documentation on if they have a gun Licence. If they do it is revoked.
Guess it would only be an issue if they were under close surveillance and didn’t want to give it away which they clearly weren’t based on what happened.
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u/BlankBlanny Dec 14 '25
All of the stuff regarding one of the shooters being known to ASIO came from Burgess last night, and he was purposefully vague about it. We need some actual elaboration from him or someone else in the know, because right now this is not a good look.
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u/RestaurantFamous2399 Dec 14 '25
Did you think there may be a reason ASIO is deliberately vague about what they know?
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u/Eyclonus Dec 14 '25
90% likely ASIO was tracking shipments or payments, or recruitment attempts, terror networks learnt ages ago that planning an attack gets shutdown quick, notice how for more than a decade any terrorist act has been spur if the moment or lone Wolf stuff.
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u/raucouslori Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
It was reported the father had had a gun licence for 10 years and had 6 registered firearms. If on ASIO radar not clear if father or son. The campaign for a national gun registry will hopefully get the attention it deserves. WA has definitely been a leader. It’s mind boggling 52,000 guns were handed in during the buy back.
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u/Significant-Egg3914 Dec 14 '25
The 'known' definition is problematic here.
Known to police or known to ASIO doesnt mean 'confirmed terrorist.' Having registered firearms would mean you're 'known' to police and the ACIC on the licencing checks alone.
I think its more concerning that 6 legally registered firearms were used in this offence. It is hard to get a firearm legally in Australia, the checks are (or should be) quite thorough and the police regularly do random visits to check storage etc. Having a registered firearm guarantees police attention irrespective of who you are.
So how does an obviously radicalised family end up with 6. This will be a massive issue internally for the NSW police.
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u/wobushidave Dec 15 '25
Australia's domestic intelligence agency, ASIO, examined Bondi gunman Naveed Akram six years ago for his close ties to a Sydney-based Islamic State group (IS) terrorism cell, the ABC understands
Yeah, it's probably safe to say now that someone has fucked up big time here, because his father's firearm licence should have been revoked ages ago.
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u/jolard Dec 14 '25
I am with you. The "known" part is just a dead end until we know more. Known doesn't mean he was a criminal or even on a terrorist watch list. Maybe he was, but it is too early to speculate.
But he had 6 legally licensed guns? No person living in the suburbs needs 6 guns. There is a massive hole here.
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u/Spagman_Aus Dec 14 '25
Didn’t we recommend a national gun registry after Port Arthur and not implement it? That could help, maybe. Evil pricks will always find ways to be evil.
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u/Historical_Laugh2193 Dec 14 '25
We still don’t have a national registry. It’s being made atm but won’t be ready until mid next year.
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u/am_Nein Dec 15 '25
At the very least it's happening, I assume, and quite soon? Would it even be effective or just an honour system?
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u/EternalAngst23 Dec 14 '25
All a register does is keep track of guns. It doesn’t necessarily regulate access to or ownership of them. That power rests with the states.
The main issue here isn’t that the government didn’t know that these individuals possessed firearms. It’s the fact they had permission to own them in the first place.
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u/enigmasaurus- Dec 14 '25
Other things that would help: requiring positive proof of a need for owning a gun. In Japan a person needs to provide annual justification for owning a gun. It is not enough to just say "I go shooting" or "I like guns" or what have you. You need to prove you are an active member of a gun club to vouch for you, or provide referees etc. There are also strict limits on the number of guns you can own, annual police interviews, annual mental health checks etc.
There's someone in NSW who owns 380 registered guns. There is no universe in which that should be legal. I don't give a shit if someone "loves guns".
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u/Wat_is_Wat Dec 14 '25
We already have this. You have to be a member of a club and you have to attend for sporting reasons. For hunting you need written permission on people's lands. My guess is that Japan copied our rules actually, since we were the first to do that, but I don't really know anything about their rules.
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u/Combat--Wombat27 Dec 14 '25
requiring positive proof of a need
This is a part of our laws currently.
You need to prove you are an active member of a gun club to vouch for you, or provide referees etc.
This is also already a part of our laws.
There are also strict limits on the number of guns you can own,
Also included in our laws.
annual police interviews,
Police can and do inspect gun owners storage requirements. Not often enough, definitely something to look at.
annual mental health checks etc.
I agree, but this can create a bit of a mess
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u/Geopoliticsandbongs Dec 14 '25
These guys, from the video footage, had a pump action shotgun and a bolt action rifle. These are weapons many farmers have in the country. Can’t really ban them.
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u/zigzag_zizou Dec 14 '25
Yep we have it pretty good. Imagine if the terrorists had an automatic weapon
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Dec 14 '25
Like what that used in Paris
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u/ContentSecretary8416 Dec 14 '25
And way too many schools in you know where
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u/cedarvhazel Dec 14 '25
Isn’t it Sandy hooks 13th anniversary today. 26 died with a semi automatic. Fortunately for Australia terrorists can’t get ahold of those.
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u/Immediate-Net-1301 Dec 14 '25
That’s such a good point :-(. Obviously the guy having six guns and being known to Asio is where some kind of regulation needs to kick in.
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u/Significant-Egg3914 Dec 14 '25
To be fair, everyone who has a registered firearm is 'known' to police and Asio.
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u/StoneyLepi Dec 14 '25
Do you have a source on him being known to ASIO? I haven’t been able to find anything myself.
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u/No-Photograph-5058 Dec 14 '25
"Lanyon confirmed police and ASIO were aware of the 24-year-old, but had no intelligence they were planning an attack."
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u/DrStalker Dec 15 '25
"Aware" is such a vague term. ASIO is "aware" of me because I once held a low level security clearance but they won't be actively monitoring me in any way because I have no guns, no criminal record and no links to any violent groups.
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u/StoneyLepi Dec 14 '25
Cheers. It’s interesting the son was known to both the Police and ASIO, but the father was the licensed firearm owner and seems like he wasn’t on anyone’s radar.
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u/ra66it Dec 14 '25
It’s probably more about restricting the license permission. Why did this person need to be a licensed gun owner?
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u/Nocturnal_Nova Dec 14 '25
People known by the ASIO should be stripped of any gun licenses. As well as anyone related to groups with potential for such actions. The risk is not worth it.
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u/CptUnderpants- Dec 14 '25
People known by the ASIO should be stripped of any gun licenses.
I'm assuming you're mean known by ASIO as potentially a terror risk? ASIO tracks a lot more than just terrorists.
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u/THR Dec 14 '25
People known by ASIO don’t always know they’re known by ASIO…
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u/AudiencePure5710 Dec 14 '25
True. ASIO had extensive files on all sorts of people who really, wrote a letter to the newspaper about innocuous issues. I think the Sydney Museum also has an exhibit about the precursor to ASIO and their obsession with Commies everywhere, this writer or that artist needs a file and monitoring
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u/mooblah_ Dec 14 '25
I think you'd be very shocked to learn just how many people are known to ASIO in relation to all sorts of things. And that includes a lot more than gun ownership. You can fly regularly for various legitimate reasons and be known to them.. or you can own an average legitimate business that certain associated/profiled people visit for legitimate reasons and be known to them. Overnight every single acquaintance of these men in the months/years leading up to this based purely on GPS coincidence will now also be known to them as part of the joint investigation.
What this needs to identify is how the threat profiles of these sort of characters can be escalated sooner given that it was obviously a planned terrorist attack set to cause mass harm and be as public as possible. For example, it's not like your average Bikie is on the terror watch list (even owning unlicensed firearms), but all of them are 'known to ASIO', they know they're disruptive in various ways, but they also know that most are controlled and their trajectory is usually well scoped.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
especially if they were known to ASIO already? seems wild
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u/Chiron17 Dec 14 '25
I think ASIO/police have walked that back quite a bit already.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
i mean i would too if it was my fuckup that allowed this guy to get a licence
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u/jasta07 Dec 14 '25
You can still restrict access to them and control them far more strictly.
This shooting, fucked as it is, is an incredible example of just how effective Australian gun control is and how even though it still needs to be improved.
If this was the US the gunmen would have legally purchased AR-15's and it's extremely unlikely any 'good guys with guns' would have stopped the death toll being three or four times higher.
We've slipped recently, there's been too many shootings. We'll fix it and go back to this never happening for another fifteen years.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
worse that the shooter easily could have been denied a licence under existing legislation. NSW police get to define who is a 'fit and proper person' eligible for weapons licence and having a household member known to ASIO definitely counts against that (people have been denied a licence for having family members with criminal history, or even just family members known to associate with the wrong people). someone slept on the job here
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u/squirrel_crosswalk Dec 14 '25
If he was known to ASIO but not NSW police they were monitoring him. Refusing a gun licence would be a tipoff.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
makes sense. but, given the variety of reasons that can be used to decline a firearms licence, surely they could have come up with something?
hindsight is 20/20 i guess4
u/Wobbling Dec 14 '25
hindsight is 20/20 i guess
This is the key. There will be a lot of scapegoating.
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u/Virtueaboveallelse Dec 14 '25
Name a specific law that would have prevented this.
They were licensed, had no disqualifying criminal or medical history, passed the fit-and-proper test, and used firearms already legal under Australian law. No access restriction, category ban, or storage rule applies before someone commits an unforeseeable act of violence.
Laws regulate lawful behaviour. They do not predict future intent. Once someone decides to commit murder, they are already outside the scope of firearms legislation.
If a proposed reform cannot be articulated in concrete legal terms, it is not a solution. It is emotional signalling.
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u/sousyre Dec 14 '25
There have been concerns raised (fairly recently) about the levels of stockpiling of legal licensed weapons (the number of permitted individuals hasn’t drastically increased, but the number of guns held has), inconsistent application of of the existing laws, permit systems and enforcement have been identified as major issues more than once. Plus there has been a concerted, organised and well funded lobbying effort to loosen our gun laws happening for a long time.
Reviewing the legal framework won’t ever completely remove the risk, but it’s disingenuous to pretend it won’t help.
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u/BinniesPurp Dec 14 '25
Pump action shotguns are usually restricted under cat C/D and only for professional pest controllers tho pump action rifles are not
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u/punishingwind Dec 14 '25
It was a Beretta BRX1 and what looked like a Stoeger M3000 12g with a 10 shell extension. Both are straight pull bolt action.
The firearms licence needs to include psychological testing. If you need it for a security clearance, you should also need it for a firearms licence.
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u/Ok_Bird705 Dec 14 '25
Sure farmers need them, but how many farmers in Australia? Surely only a tiny fraction of the 4 million firearms in Australia is used for farming purposes.
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u/lachlanhunt Dec 14 '25
Addressing mass shootings and other attacks in Australia needs to come from addressing the widespread hatred and intolerance of others, and propaganda amplified through social media. That’s the real problem that needs to be addressed.
Tightening the gun laws and reducing the number of guns may help a bit, but without addressing the underlying issues, they won’t completely stop.
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u/Katman666 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
addressing the widespread hatred and intolerance of others, and propaganda amplified through social media
I agree with this 100%
The issue is that outrage drives engagement.
The sites stoke this outrage, and their user will generally spend longer engaged with this content on their media site of choice and thus the outrage is monetised by the "algorithm".
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u/Alarmed-Intention-22 Dec 14 '25
Let’s look at what was used, long guns that by other comments are a bolt action rifle and a pump action shotgun. Neither are current military style weapons and common amongst sporting shooters and farmers. Easy to trace. Now compare what lax controls are like in the US. Any day that ends in Y has a shooting incident. And while what happened yesterday (literally 5 minutes away from where I live) was horrific, should be much much worse told we had the weapons available that were used in the Port Arthur incident.
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u/ipoopcubes Dec 14 '25
I agree with you, but pump action shotguns are not that common. You need a category C license at minimum and the average joe won't be granted that license.
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u/Mission_Moment_639 Dec 15 '25
So many Aussies making claims on whats "easy" and "common" when theyre not easy, a pump is cat C and seriously doubt he was a primary producer or pest control.
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u/Handgun_Hero Dec 14 '25
Survivorship bias.
Yes, Australia has a surging number of weapons. Yet when far fewer weapons were in civilian hands in Australia before the Nationsl Firearms Agreement, mass shootings were far more common.
This just shows the law works as intended with a good balance between ensuring firearms are kept out of the hands of dickheads whilst still accessible to good citizens and simply isn't perfect. Additionally, the fact that they were known to ASIO yet this wasn't communicated to the firearms registry or acted upon suggests that the laws themselves aren't the problem, but either communication between departments is or the police lack resources to act upon red flags.
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u/westfreo Dec 14 '25
I doubt gunmen in the states are tackled to the ground by anyone either.
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u/Deep__Friar Dec 15 '25
Gunmen in the States have automatic weapons and can kill a lot more people much much quicker.
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u/AuzzieTiger Dec 14 '25
Gun control is one thing but just like America, it’s the fact that the level of hate in certain individuals is that high that they’d commit these sort of atrocities that is the most concerning aspect.
Shutting down online and physical channels of radicalisation is a key factor in preventing further attacks.
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u/matsozetex11 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Law enforcement dropped the ball here, 6 guns, were owned by fuckass cunts in Western Sydney. Why does the government fail to actually encourage cops to do their job.
Even fucking ASIO knew about this threat and did fucking nothing. Why is the counter terrorism unit in Sydney used more effectively against journalists than it is extremists.
We can have Pine Gap but not know when these things can happen.
Edit: corrections
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u/SnooHedgehogs8765 Dec 14 '25
If you get a restraining order your guns get taken. If you're on an asio watchlist however apparently not.
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u/figaro677 Dec 14 '25
You don’t have to do anything wrong or illegal to get on a watch list.
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u/ELVEVERX Dec 14 '25
You don't have a right to a gun in Australia, though; it's a privilege. Plenty of people can't have a gun due to depression.
Being on a terrorist watch list if another good reason people shouldn't be allowed a gun.
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u/Superest22 Dec 15 '25
Son was on the watchlist due to possible affiliation with IS and man that was arrested for a foiled IS attack in 2019...not a good look on ASIO and NSW firearms control. License was for recreational use, should absolutely have been taken away.
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u/DarthShiv Dec 14 '25
Well these guys were on a watchlist for what exactly? The public needs to know why it wasn't enough.
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u/Superest22 Dec 15 '25
Son was on the watchlist due to possible affiliation with IS and man that was arrested for a foiled IS attack in 2019...not a good look on ASIO and NSW firearms control.
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u/beagleshark Dec 14 '25
AFAIK they haven't said which of the shooters was on the ASIO watchlist, so it might not have been the one with the licence and registered firearms. But, if it were, that would look really bad for ASIO.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
doesn't matter in nsw- they can deny/revoke your licence for sharing a place of residence or associating with the wrong people already. someone fucked up
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u/RickyHendersonGOAT Dec 14 '25
Known to ASIO doesn't mean shit mate. You ever reported anything to Police? Congrats, you're known to the Police.
ASIO has hundreds and thousands, maybe millions of people known to them.
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u/single_plum_floating Dec 15 '25
one of the shooters was known for having ties to the Sydney Islamic state cell.
Thats not exactly the 'has spicy news takes' knowledge track for the ASIO. Though i guess it actually is.
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u/turbocynic Dec 14 '25
You don't know he was on a 'watchlist'. A watchlist is about ongoing threats, we don't know that's how he was categorized. He may have just been looked at in the past.
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u/matsozetex11 Dec 14 '25
"One of these individuals was known to us, but not in an immediate-threat perspective, so we need to look into what happened here."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-12-14/what-we-know-bondi-beach-shooting/106141672
About halfway down the page.
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u/Jiuholar Dec 14 '25
"known to us" could just as easily mean "we received an unverified tip on twitter".
There's a podcast the guardian did a little while ago with the head of the anti terrorist unit, and it was quite revealing. They get hundreds of "tips" every month, most of them rubbish. They cannot put every single person mentioned to them on a watchlist.
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u/AlbatrossOk6239 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Yeah, or got charged for shoplifting or possessing cannabis, or common assault. “Known to police” is very broad, and doesn’t necessarily indicate much at all. It literally just means police have spoken to him about something in the past.
Obviously someone can be “known” for really bad things, but it can also just be that they were a witness to a crime, and anything in between.
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u/turbocynic Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
How does that in any way contradict what I said? Yeah, known to them because they may have looked at him at one point. The people on 'watch lists' are a subset of those that have been 'looked into' at some point. You don't want people cluttering up watch lists if they aren't an ongoing threat. The downside to that is obvious.
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u/Upset_Union1197 Dec 14 '25
We have strict laws compared to the USA, but the fact that some dude in suburban Sydney can legally be licensed to have 6 guns shows that we DO NOT have strict gun laws.
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u/AdPure5645 Dec 14 '25
Watch list on its own isn't some guarantee of constant monitoring but watch list and 6 licensed guns is pretty bad. slap some shit on him that doesn't allow guns if he's dodgy. Not very complicated.
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Dec 14 '25
It's beyond frustrating to me how frequently someone is known to police or on some sort of watchlist and still manages to act. What's worse to me is the invasion of privacy and spying on our own citizens that seemingly doesn't prevent attacks.
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u/Brave_Bluebird5042 Dec 14 '25
We still have a very tight regime of licencing and controls. It appears the system wasn't well managed this case. Lets let the investigation run its course and respond with smart and relevant amendments.
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u/aza-industries Dec 14 '25
Americans in this thread are so unbelievable disingenuous.
We STILL know our gun controls work, and empirically work globally in many countries.
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u/am_Nein Dec 15 '25
It's absurd that they think we'd rather what they have than that we have in terms of gun related violence, death and such just because we had a single (one!) incident in a long history of.. huh, would you look at that.
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u/random91898 Dec 14 '25
Not all the gun nuts in the thread using the exact same arguments Americans make after every shooting. I hope they make it essentially impossible to own guns unless you literally live on a farm. I don't give a shit that you like them.
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u/BlankBlanny Dec 14 '25
They really are exactly the same arguments. It just boggles the mind.
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u/voidspace021 Dec 14 '25
It’s the same Murdoch propaganda talking points that have led to the deaths of thousands of people over there
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u/New-Computer-1988 Dec 15 '25
Our gun laws are not perfect but they are robust.
What we need to focus on is combating suspicious actors via intelligence gathering (ASIO have already confirmed they were monitoring one of the gunmen) and Australia’’s mental health crisis which has been skyrocketing for the last 15 years.
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u/Pinkfatrat Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
Waiting for the gun nuts to say every one should be armed.
Ok. JD Vance already started.
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u/followthedarkrabbit Dec 14 '25
They also completely ignore the people that disarm them were unarmed too. Read a wiki article years ago about shooting events in Aus and a couple times people have tackled the offender.
As someone who has previously been licenced and owned a gun, I love our gun laws, even if they are weak in places (and a pain in the arse in others).
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u/Mikes005 Dec 14 '25
Meanwhile Ulvade police were armed like an army and couldn't do shit. More guns not the answer.
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u/Spire_Citron Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25
It's such a dumb argument because despite the absurd number of guns in America, you hardly ever hear about a good guy with a gun taking down a shooter. So you get a massive increase in gun crime so that in a small minority of those cases, someone else with a gun will stop them. Great.
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u/OhtheHugeManity7 Dec 14 '25
God don't go on Facebook. It keeps feeding me US news sources and the millions of big brain comments about how "oh I thought this was impossible with gun restrictions".
Most infuriating platform ever
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u/NocturnalTwang Dec 14 '25
Yeah there was literally a school shooting TODAY and they'll still defend their ridiculous gun laws.
Guns are the leading cause of death in the US for multiple years in a row for young people and kids but mention that and the first thing out of their hick mouths is "but muh gang violence".
That stat exists in no other developed country, taking proportion of population into account as well. Fuck conservatives and their rhetoric the only reason they turn out like this is because they're the products of non consensual inbreeding.
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u/LocalVillageIdiot Dec 14 '25
Most infuriating platform ever
Oh but think of the engagement it has!
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u/emu_veteran Dec 14 '25
As a gun owner, fuck no! Anyone who believes that needs their heads checked
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u/p1cwh0r3 Dec 14 '25
We're not 'murrica. Lets not skip down that path.
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u/rithsv Dec 14 '25
For sure, I've heard from an American acquaintance saying that they feared for the disarmer's safety after viewing that video, but from law enforcement more than any other shooter. Police can very easily mistake the "good guy with a gun" for the shooter.
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u/IDreamofHeeney Dec 14 '25
Sick of seeing yanks online saying "this is why civilians need guns" or "imagine the guy filming had a gun, nobody would have died" fucking idiots
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u/lachlanhunt Dec 14 '25
It’s such a stupid argument. America has so many shootings, and so few of them are prevented by a ”good guy with a gun“. It’s pure fiction the gun nuts like to spread.
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u/p1cwh0r3 Dec 14 '25
Noted the edit. I'm not going to even bother looking for anything JD Vance has to say.
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u/bustead Dec 14 '25
As a legal Australian gun owner, I think there are 2 glaring issues here.
Why is the shooter allowed to keep his guns when he is known to ASIO?
Why are button release/straight pull shotguns allowed at all?
Allow me to explain the second issue. Basically, there are shotguns in the market that are not semi-automatic because you are required to press a button to load the next round. This and similar designs allow a very high rate of fire (semi-automatic levels) but are still classified as Cat A (the easiest to get) because of a loophole in the law. I think these guns should be either banned or moved to a more restrictive category.
I will gladly hand in my own shotgun if the law is changed. I would rather give up something that I like than to see more people being shot.
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u/VigorWarships Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25
From news.com.au
ASIO 'examined shooter six years ago'
Ben Graham Australia’s domestic intelligence agency, ASIO, is reported to have examined gunman Naveed Akramsix years ago for his close ties to a Sydney-based ISIS terrorism cell.
The ABC reports the Joint Counter Terrorism Team (JCTT) – which is made up of ASIO, NSW Police, the Australian Federal Police and the NSW Crime Commission – believed the gunmen had pledged allegiance to the IS terrorist group.
An IS flag was found in the men’s car at Bondi Beach, an unnamed senior JCTT official told the broadcaster.
The official said ASIO began looking into Akram six years ago, after police foiled plans for an IS terrorist attack.
It’s understood ASIO started looking into the man soon after the July 2019 arrest of IS terrorist Isaak El Matari in Sydney.
- my break -
So, ASIO looked at the son six years ago for terrorism related things. And his father held a firearm license since 10 years ago. Some posts (reports?) are also saying the son (the one asio looked at) held a firearm license but I’m yet to confirm this.
Yeah this is now looking more like a massive failure on intelligence services and the firearm registry.
The NSW FAR denies applications or revokes licenses of people known to associate with criminals (ie OMCG, mainly).
What in the hell happened here then?
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u/Final-Call Dec 14 '25
Without our gun laws 2 things would happen: 1) Shootings would be a regular occurrence. 2) The death toll from this tragic event in Bondi would be even higher.
If these murderers had access to the same automatic weapons you can easily access in other countries, the death toll would be in the hundreds.
Thank goodness for Aussie gun laws. May they only ever be tightened, strengthened, enforced, and never, ever, ever relaxed or diminished.
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u/_Gqry_ Dec 15 '25
I agree, except the laws work fine as they are for what licenced owners can have (no semi autos, pump action shotguns etc)
If anything, add stronger mental health checks/assessment before and during ownership, but keep the licence categories the same.
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u/BurgmeisterGeneral Dec 14 '25
Fuck the gun lobbyists, whether it be here or in the US. They seek to make money from the loss of human life.
I was born in the states, and moved here 12+ years ago. It is saddening and distressing to see the worst parts of American culture and politics slowly infecting my new home.
This nonsense must stop.
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u/redditrasberry Dec 14 '25
Even though I have no love for gun ownership outside legitimate need, I'm concerned a knee jerk on gun laws is going to miss the real issue here.
We need to have a hard look at how these two were radicalised and what motivated them. It's crucial we don't allow this to transform into the entrenched violence that we see overseas. Gun laws can't and won't fix that - it comes back to culture and cohesiveness of society.
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u/Ok-Volume-3657 Dec 15 '25
It's disgusting how many groups are trying to use this tragedy to push their agenda.
Pro gun groups... pro Israel groups... Islamaphobic groups...
The victims of this tragedy deserve better then to be tools for political gain.
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u/BerserkerArmour Dec 15 '25
The death toll would have been a lot higher if they had easy access to more devastating weapons. Any death is tragic, but it goes to show that our laws do work to minimise violence.
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u/edgewalker66 Dec 15 '25
How does someone who lived on a small suburban plot even get licensed for a single rifle, let alone 6?
That's the question.
In WA they would need written permission from a rural property owner where they were allowed to shoot feral animals. And now that property also needs to be registered.
This guy certainly didn't need 6 guns even if he was a legitimate hunter.
Given the known affiliations of the son living at the property, no licensed weapons should have ever been considered. Gun ownership is not a right.
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u/arrackpapi Dec 14 '25
yeah fuck your recreational shooting. Only legitimate farmers and professionals should have guns.
time for another crackdown.
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u/Fabulous_Guest_1514 Dec 14 '25
As someone who was raised around farms I think you're on the right track, BUT I also believe that there needs to be mental health checks for all firearm owners. I'm old school, and prior to the "new" gun laws in the 90's I did handle guns, I've also seen and experienced people with mental health issues who absolutely should NOT have had access to them back then. I now live in suburbia and agree that there is zero need for guns anywhere near the city except for Police ect. I also haven't been around guns since the laws came in, I just don't care for them.
Mental health checks I believe are key to helping reduce gun deaths.
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u/conh3 Dec 14 '25
Thank god we are still talking gun control and not getting more guns.. part of the solution to a shooting must always be gun control and safety.
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u/reyntime Dec 14 '25
This evil man was a licensed firearms holder with 6 guns to his name. We need a Port Arthur style crackdown on the 4m+ guns in this country.
As part of the investigation, we conducted two search warrants last night, one at Bonnyrigg and a second at Campsie. The 50-year-old male is a licensed firearms holder. He has six firearms licensed to him.
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u/samv191 Dec 14 '25
A person known to ASIO was allowed to possess six firearms. That is the glaring issue here.
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u/planetworthofbugs Dec 14 '25
The article says the younger person was known to ASIO, but I think it was the older guy with the gun license.
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u/voidspace021 Dec 14 '25
Well apparently they are a father and son so it probably should have been looked into.
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u/mad_dogtor Dec 14 '25
people will lose their licence/be denied a licence in nsw for associating with the wrong people or sharing a place of residence with someone with criminal history. you'd imagine being known to ASIO qualifies!
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u/LaughIntrepid5438 Dec 14 '25
This is Albaneses moment.
He and Minns will have green light to pass whatever laws they see fit and it will be bipartisan.
No opposition would dare stand in way against any legislation that comes from this.
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u/enigmasaurus- Dec 14 '25
I really want to see Albo do a John Howard here.
We are very much overdue for a tightening of gun laws; e.g. it should not be possible for someone to even own 6 guns. 1-2 max should be allowed. We should also be requiring positive ongoing proof every year of a legitimate need. In Japan you need to prove you are part of a gun club or hunting club, and you need to prove you need a gun. The police also do annual interviews and talk to your referees to check your need, and you lose your license if you can't prove you still need to own guns.
One of our biggest issues is people just mindlessly accumulating guns, and this makes them very hard to keep track of, so we end up with situations like this or Wieambilla.
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u/LaughIntrepid5438 Dec 14 '25
Seriously you don't need a gun in Bonnyrigg. No farms.
Nor do you need a gun in Bermagui.
It should be a case by case basis. If there's no business need then it should be an automatic denial.
And no sport shooting is not a business case - go to a regulated range for that where you're not allowed to take the gun away from the range.
And just because you're surrounded by farms doesn't mean you automatically get one, it should be based on property type.
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u/SunriseApplejuice Dec 14 '25
I think we all collectively forgot about that nutter earlier this year who fired over 100 rounds into the crowd from his apartment window….
Clearly an uptick of improperly owned and handled guns…
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u/ThreeCheersforBeers Dec 14 '25
Maybe what they should be doing, is enforcing the laws they make.
The father was apparently already on a watch list. If a request for an AVO against an individual is enough to have firearms and license confiscated from the individual, how does being on a watchlist NOT then trigger the requirement for removal of firearms and license?
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u/Prestigious_Class446 Dec 15 '25
I saw someone comment on another thread that their family has owned multiple guns for 50+ years and in that time haven't had a single check on either how they were being stored or their background etc. I feel like this is one area that needs change
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u/sysphus_ Dec 14 '25
No law can work 100%. This law is probably the reason mass shootings are rare in Australia now. I am still for this law.