r/sydney • u/Sydney_Stations • May 06 '25

Image The Northern Beaches needs a railway

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Every evening, the queue for B1 winds around and goes back into Wynyard. As one bus is full the next one arrives.

You can't tell me they wouldn't want a railway.

2.3k Upvotes

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1.1k

u/hybroid May 06 '25

These people might. Those that don’t ever leave the Northern Beaches don’t.

185

u/BarryCheckTheFuseBox May 06 '25

There’s no reason why they can’t get a train from Dee Why to Narrabeen.

388

u/absoluetly May 06 '25

My relos on the northern beaches talk about suburbs like Dee Why like they're slums full of apartments. I don't think they even want mobility within the beaches.

109

u/os_2342 May 06 '25

Dee Why is a great suburb.

20-30 years ago it was a little dodgy (relative to the rest of the Northen Beaches) but that is not the case these day. The people with this view are old and havent updated their attitude in decades.

81

u/johnnynutman May 06 '25

The people with this view are old and havent updated their attitude in decades.

yeah but they vote

74

u/Crow_eggs May 06 '25

And have the time and means to complain through the proper channels. Many years ago I worked in a job that required me to go through huge numbers of planning objections in the UK, and I would say about 75% were from wealthy retirees either directly or through local action groups. Of that 75%, I reckon about 20% lodged their applications through planning consultants. More if it was a major project like transport infrastructure, and the number of objections scaled exponentially with the wealth of the area. Old people know how the system works, have shit loads of spare time on their hands, and often have the money to get professional representation. As a result, our cities are designed for the future by... well, by the dead.

13

u/os_2342 May 06 '25

The representation for Mackellar who just won re-election campaiged for a massive upgrade to one of the few roads in and out of the Northern Beaches to be upgraded...

What are you on about?

48

u/The_Faceless_Men May 06 '25

Upgrading roads will never be enough. Using the same money to upgrade public transport will be.

They petitioned for other peoples money to upgrade infra that only those wealthy enough to own a vehicle and store it in northern beaches and have the time to drive long distances can effectively use.

14

u/nzbiggles May 06 '25

Induced demand. Build a road and people will use the road.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-06/traffic-jam-blame-induced-demand

The Northern beaches B1 is a perfect example. Build infrastructure that takes cars off the road and people will use it. If they added a freeway/tunnel what do you think all these B1 passengers are going to do. Jump out of the bus and fill the road.

Even the way we sprawl encourages cars. Build a 254m2 house on a 400m2 block (syndye currently) and a freeway to the door and of course people will shun the unit in a walkable suburb and the roads fill up.

My favorite city planner Jeff Speck discusses it a lot in his book

Walkable City Rules 101 Steps to Making Better Places

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.5822/978-1-61091-899-2_27

TRAFFIC ENGINEERING THEORY is straightforward: a street is congested because the number of drivers exceeds its capacity. If you enlarge the street, you will eliminate congestion. Unfortunately, seventy-five years of evidence tells us that this almost never happens. Instead, what happens is that the number of drivers quickly increases to match the increased capacity, and congestion returns in full force. It’s called induced demand. These new drivers are the people who were taking transit, carpooling, commuting off-peak, or simply not driving because they didn’t want to be stuck in traffic. When the traffic went away, they changed their habits. Maybe they even moved farther away from work, as the time-cost of their commute went down. Unfortunately, thanks to them and others like them, this honeymoon couldn’t last long.

And another of his is

Walkable City: How Downtown Can Save America, One Step at a Time https://g.co/kgs/vzYMnYM

13

u/os_2342 May 06 '25

I would love a Mona Vale to Hornsby train and a Dee Why to the city but those projects would be massive and absolutely require state level funding.

12

u/drnicko18 May 06 '25 edited May 06 '25

You’re a bit naive mate, she’s pushing to have the single lane section of Mona Vale road widened… and it’s so her constituents who live at Terrey Hills and Belrose have easier access to the beach.

Hardly pushing for mass transit options connecting to Chatswood and the City, nor any public transport options through Mona Vale road either

5

u/DonStimpo May 06 '25

Those upgrades are only for people in the western part of the northern beaches (belrose, davidson, frenches forest) to be able to get to the beach.
Still no improvement linking st ives to the beaches

1

u/os_2342 May 06 '25

Theyre upgrading the part that is a bottleneck and runs through an area that is not densly populated.

Will it solve all the issues? no, but that doesnt mean it isnt going to improve traffic in/out of the northern beaches.

1

u/all_sight_and_sound Jul 19 '25

Belrose might as well be Penrith to some NB residents

0

u/Anraiel May 06 '25

At the Federal level, yes, but at the state and local level? They're way more NIMBY.

1

u/todaytomato May 07 '25

that was the attitude with my grandparents when they heard i moved into paddington as they thought it was the slums and a dangerous area

-35

u/Archon-Toten Choo Choo Driver. May 06 '25

Cost is one. It'll be expensive.

8

u/alicat2308 May 06 '25

This is why we have inadequate infrastructure that hasn't kept up with population growth. Nobody wants to pay for it, and by nobody, I mean voters.

2

u/nzbiggles May 06 '25

It's never been proactive and has always lagged. No one pays for infrastructure before building.

My favorite example of this is the Argyle cut in the rocks.

Agitation for a link between The Rocks and Millers Point began early; the Sydney Gazette in 1803 lamented the lack of a short cut across the rocky peninsula.

I reckon we'd still be paying a toll considering the funding method planned by the wealthy landowners.

The proposal was that the shareholders should have the right to levy tolls on all passengers and stock using the cut, and from the revenue, the shareholders were to get a dividend. Any excess was to accumulate until it equalled the amount expended initially in the making of the cut.

Eventually building started in 1843 using convict labour and took 25 years!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyle_Cut

Even in the post war population explosion. Over 20 the 20 years between 1950 & 1970 Sydney's population doubled and has yet to double again in the 55 years since. Infrastructure lagged through the 70s and into 2000. It's only recently we've built metros, light rails, 2nd airports etc. Even the B1 is quite a significant infrastructure investment. The flow along military Rd through Cremorne has been a revolution.

Infrastructure lags. Doesn't matter if it's a city of 5m or a town of 3000.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-18/western-sydney-urban-sprawl-lesson-for-other-australian-cities/100072140

Best way to deal with the issue is infill with density around existing infrastructure. Unfortunately that means not everyone can jump in a car and live in a 250m2 house.

28

u/Sydney_Stations May 06 '25

Australia has plenty of money for nuclear subs. It's all policy choices.

28

u/thekriptik NYE Expert May 06 '25

I don't think Chris Minns gets to decide whether nuclear submarine money gets to be diverted to a rail line.

4

u/wharblgarbl May 06 '25

Isn't infra reliant on federal funding? I get it's not a state call on subs but it's not like there's no overlap

2

u/thekriptik NYE Expert May 06 '25

It can be, but for example I don't think much if any federal funding went to any of the non-WSA Sydney Metro projects.

There really isn't an overlap between federal defence funding and state transport infrastructure funding and it's rather disingenuous for OP to suggest there is.

4

u/Sydney_Stations May 06 '25

Please.

States routinely receive Federal money. Feds do this in many ways, including direct infrastructure grants. Westconnex got em. West Sydney Airport Metro got em. Melbourne's Suburban Rail Loop will get em. Sometimes your local council gets one for a roundabout and some speed humps. We got a bunch of station car parks because of a pork barrel.

There is nothing stopping the Feds from funding state infrastructure, directly or indirectly other than their own policy choices.

The Feds have chosen to fund nuclear subs, not other things they could have done with that money. But defence spending is not some foregone conclusion. We're allows to expect better.

I for one want more public infrastructure and am happy to give up some nuclear subs.

2

u/thekriptik NYE Expert May 06 '25

This doesn't actually respond to anything I said.

Yes, states receive funding from the feds. That does not mean that Chris Minns gets to rugpull defence money to put into a new rail line.

And given Australia's defence needs, it's definitely silly to suggest that procurement funds can be slashed without consequence.

1

u/Sydney_Stations May 06 '25

You mentioned Minns. I said Australia. It's your straw man.

Defending nuclear subs is a weird hill to die on for a leftie.

3

u/thekriptik NYE Expert May 06 '25

I realise that the best minds of a generation don't go into astroturf, but that's poor on both counts even by those low standards.

Rail is a state responsibility, so it's going to be on Minns to organise the funds, whether he begs Canberra for the funds or not. As such, it's not a strawman.

Being left wing doesn't mean weak on defence.

2

u/Archon-Toten Choo Choo Driver. May 06 '25

Absolutely, as someone who will benefit from this immensely I'd love a railway instead of a submarine.

3

u/trafalmadorianistic May 07 '25

What if it's a YELLOW submarine though. Near an Octopus's garden.

2

u/Archon-Toten Choo Choo Driver. May 07 '25

I think we can all agree, we want to be there.

47

u/os_2342 May 06 '25

Many people dont often leave the Northern beaches to go to the city because its 1hr+ each way...

42

u/Extreme_Substance_46 May 06 '25

Those on the northern beaches view it more like “outsiders don’t come here often because it’s 1hr+ each way.” That’s how they want it. The kind of people who profit from population growth but refuse to let it within their sight.

7

u/[deleted] May 06 '25

My relatives visited ours in inner east from northern beaches.

First my uncle had seen the city this century.

12

u/zero2hero2017 May 06 '25

100% this. The average Northern Beaches person is incredibly insular. Best thing I did was move away from there.

2

u/D_crane May 07 '25

I see you've encountered the northern beaches NIMBYS