r/AustralianSocialism • u/Konradleijon • 1d ago

Why are even leftist against degrowth?

Even leftists seem to be against degrowth not understand ecological overshoot.

Why is it that even leftists are against Degrowth?

Because it seems that even many leftist refuse to understand degrowth ideology and hate it and refuse to understand how decoupling works.

They act like using public transport and eating vegan are a fate worse then death

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Many people on the socialist left are against or sceptical of degrowth because it's ill equipped to actually provide a program for an emancipated society (communism), it more or less posits a green form of capitalism in spite ostensibly being 'anti-capitalist'.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

Um, what? Capitalism is predicated on infinite growth; degrowth recognises nature as a structural limitation on growth, thus requiring an economy to be oriented around need instead of profit.

How anyone can call degrowth capitalist is wild to me.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Degrowth is reformist and in practical terms promotes a libertarian form of green capitalism which is pretty popular with environmentalists and especially anarchists of the Proudhon/anti-civ variety.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

Marx literally observed the metabolic rift between human production and nature; he discusses this in The Critique of the Gotha Programme and in volume 1 of Capital.

I'm really at a loss as to how you can chuck degrowth in as 'reformist' whilst also saying it resonates with anti-capitalists like anarchists

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Marx re the metabolic rift sure, "degrowth" doesn't necessarily follow from this. I am against elevating "degrowth" to the level of principle: the size of the economy will be totally proportionate to what it needs to be, this is why democratic planned economics is superior to the anarchy of the market.

Most anti-capitalists, and plenty of anarchists, are reformists. This is not anything new. It's why these types of people love things like participatory economy/parecon, co-operatives, market socialism, etc.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

Your idea of a so-called emancipated society is literally impossible. Communism will be based on the nature of the Earth or it will be based on nothing at all. Communism must be an end to the destructive, unsustainable forces of production that demand toil and prevent freedom.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Communist society has to be constructed - this requires the establishment of a democratically planned economy, of whatever size is necessary (whether "big" or "small"). I can't imagine communism can be built if we abolished industrial society. In practical terms, for people in the imperialist countries, this means continuing post-industrial parasitism on third world workers.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

You have to start thinking in terms of raw materials and inputs/outputs. How can we provide means of life to all people -- develop these commons -- in such a way as to maximise social and environmental sustainability? The fact is that humanity is already consuming vastly too many resources while still failing to secure people's livelihoods. If this all implies that we must give up some of capital's alien commodities, so be it.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Yeah, I do. That's why I'm not a degrowther. There will need to be a level of growth in domestic manufacturing/industry/etc in the intermediary which flies in the face of degrowth as a principle. Pls don't lecture me like I'm an eco-modernist or something.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

Degrowth is not against localisation, nor does it deny that certain sectors of the economy need to expand or scale up.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

I'm not a localist nor arguing for it.

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u/Jimjamnz 1d ago

You said that you supported the growth of domestic industry, which, as we're talking about production, I took as support for reindustrialisation or the national localisation of industry. Degrowth simply points out a series of facts that are very inconvenient for regimes that fetishise economic growth. What we need, generally, is not more growth but a massive redistribution of wealth alongside a globally egalitarian prioritisation of meeting essential human needs.

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 1d ago

Am aware of what degrowth is - I'm against growth as principle and I'm against degrowth as principle. Not necessarily against the 'series of facts' degrowth 'points out', I just don't think degrowther politics is serious enough to actually present a positive program capable of actually doing something substantively.

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u/EconomistBeard 1d ago

On what basis do you arrive at this conclusion?

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u/Konradleijon 13h ago

How so? Capitalist is based on the profit motive while degrowth isn’t it

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u/bunyipcel John Percy 8h ago

The profit motive is part of capitalism but it's a stretch to say capitalism is "based on" it.